Sexist? Honey what makes you think that.

DISCUSSION FORUM:
feminism and its influence on the portrayal of sexual power

This is an archive page for August 99.
Where reader comments are of interest or where they raise significant points I will publish my response in dialogue pages such as this one. Reader comment excerpts are in black and my replies in red.
Please send your scathing critiques and observations to the email address

From: Chris ironstar@angelfire.com
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999
Hypocrisies of Feminism:

1) They want women to be portrayed as strong and independent, but all they ever do is portray them as victims.

2) They say they're proud to be women, but they're always trying to become men. Examples: They don't wear dresses, they don't wear make-up and they've even invented something that will let them piss standing up.

3) They complain that men are too controlling of women. But aren't feminists the ones that control women? They're the ones that tell women how they should act, think, feel, what they should do for a living...

4) They say women don't need men and would be better off without them. Then how come allimony still exists? And if women don't need men then why do they complain about men who abandon their families? If women can do everything by themselves and are better off without men, shouldn't feminists applaud men who abandon women?

5) They complain that society doesn't take domestic violence against women seriously. How seriously does society take domestic violence against men? What are feminists doing to get that out of the closet?

6) They complain that society doesn't take breast cancer seriously. How seriously does society take prostate cancer? A cancer that is every bit as prevalent as breast cancer.

7) Men dominate about 55% of the workforce, so feminists claim that it's a man's world. Yet 99% of feminists are white and if you say feminism is a white woman's movement, suddenly this is offensive.

8) They say men need wives, but women don't need husbands. If men need wives then why are men so afraid to commit? If women don't need husbands, then why do they say they want a man who can commit?

Also they're about 30 magazines and several TV shows about weddings. All of them are successful among their female audience. Yet if a magazine came out called "Groom Monthly" and went after a male audience it would go out of business in a week. So if women don't need husbands then why are they so obsessed with weddings and if men need wives, why are they so uninterested with weddings?

9) They complain about things like: Men make more money then women. OK true. But white people make more money than black people, yet these white feminists never seem to mention that. In fact the average white woman makes more than the average black male. That's a fact feminists definitely don't want you to know about.

10) Picture a feminist reading this list. She's probably "thinking this guy needs to stop his whining." I find it funny and hypocritical that a feminist would be saying "you need to stop your whining." It's like Calista Flockhart saying "You're too skinny."

Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
Obviously you have given this issue some thought. While we recognise hypocrisy in feminist theories it is worthwhile also trying to understand what actually makes men and women tick. Are women more like what they are supposed to be or more like what they actually seem to be? Sometimes women are indeed very independent and at other times cloyingly dependent. The same might be said for men. The ultimate project in any critique of feminist ideology is to get closer to an understanding of human nature.

From: Cynthia normw@icountry.net
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999

I grew up in the 60-70's, so I remember the world when we truly had more of a patriarchal society. You know what? Life was much better for everybody. No woman could arbitrarily kill her baby through abortion. The day that law passed I cried. I knew that next they would kill their infants, and then their older children. This is precisely what is happening. Women also routinely neglect their children, or place them in dangerous day-care centers. I was raised by a working mother who had no choice in the matter. I can tell you I was abused over and over by babysitters and day-care workers. Abortion, and routine maternal neglect have devalued the lives of children. They are just something that you have, and then stick them somewhere all day, put them to bed when you get home. What woman tries to nurture or shape the character of her child after 8-10 hours at work? That's a laugh.The real problem I see is that not enough control is placed on women. For example,I have always believed that married women should not be allowed to work outside the home. Here's why. First of all,it causes prices to rise as greedy corporate America raises prices on everything in anticipation of a two income family. Secondly, when one married woman is working and neglecting her children, the others get jealous because she is collecting a pay-check. Therefore they all want to do the same thing. They justify leaving their infants at day-care centers or even alone so they can go after the almighty dollar. Thirdly, when married women are able to enter the job-market, unscrupulous husbands will try and exploit them.I know, it happened to me. My husband got every penny of my paycheck the 8 years we were married. I would have loved to stay home and be a housewife, but he wouldn't hear of it. It also happened to my mother. It happened to all three of my sisters, and happens to about 70% of the married women that work. I think allowing married women to work also makes for an unsteady marriage because the woman is out there mingling with other men all day where she might decide to have an affair. Secondly, it worries the women that are at home doing their domestic duties because those women are mingling with their husbands all day. The home is usually filthy in a working woman's home. I've seen this many times. No wonder so many new strains of diseases are floating around these days. Everyone's health is going to pot because women no longer cook nutricious food for their kids or husbands. They typically eat fast foods which are loaded with cholesterol. Also, when a woman works outside the home, she soon realizes that she doesn't need a husband, for crying out loud, she is supporting herself. Why does she need someone telling her what to do at home, or interfering in her decision making process. This is one reason feminist want women to work, and why they have such a disdain for the housewife. Another reason women shouldn't work outside the home is because of conflicting schedules. Her job may require that she work until 9:00, her husband's until 7:00 and the kids need to be picked up by 3:30. So what happens? The kids have to get home any way they can, Mom and Dad seldom see each other, and next thing you know the whole relationship has fallen apart. My suggestions to clear up this whole mess would be to pass a law providing that married women cannot work outside the home, and that there can be no fornication by either sex. This would put marriage back in its proper place and provide some security for children. Also, repeal the "no-fault divorce laws." All of this is really hurting women and children as much as the men. Most women do not want this "liberation" that seperates them from their children and their husbands and keeps everyone in poverty. Its up to you men to change it whatever way you can. I get verbally threatened by other women when I make statements like I have made here. I have a wonderful husband. He is 20 years older than me, but we have the same attitudes about the male/female relationship.I feel lucky to have a real man that can run our life and care for me.

Read my reply or Skip to next archive (July)
Wow! or is that Whooo! There is no doubt that you hold a coherent and thoroughly developed opinion on this subject.

Firstly, as you can no doubt tell the site you visited is broadly critical of feminism. However I am not a Conservative. In contrast I would put your viewpoint on the family in the realm of the Conservative (To maintain those traditional institutions and customs that support 'the family' and methods of welfare). My attitude to the family is not fully made up and I am reluctant to make judgements. I was personally brought up in what could be described as a traditional family and in other respects not so. My parents worked hard which also required my mother to work outside the home but it was never an oppressive arrangement. In some respects the working life of professional women today seems to be getting more demanding.

On the other hand I have seen single parent 'families' which are often formed under unusual circumstances which seem to provide some disadvantages. But I am very reluctant to condemn them outright. After all the successful nuclear family shouldn't perhaps be compared to the failed single parent model. For these reasons I am reluctant to make decrees on how I think society should be structured. I want to respond to a few matters that you raise.

Abortion
I am in favour of abortion rights. There is no point in me debating the subtleties of the rights of the faetus. The main reason I favour abortion right is because it helps to deal with the many small mistakes people in a modern permissive society make. If it had not been for abortion I would not be here today. I would now be in a permanent relationship with a woman who I did not much like and who did not like me. We were young and extremely foolish and perhaps we needed better sex education. I have had a number of sexual encounters since then but this one could have ruined my life quite literally. You have to lie in the bed that you make. But this was one chance where I could pursue my own happiness.

Also the idea that day care centers are the main source of abuse for children is not completely fair. I have known people who work in daycare centers who have been more caring about the children than the mothers themselves. Undoubtedly a mother in most instances will be the most careful and nurturing for her child and the modern system removes mothers very substantially from bonding with her child. However we shouldn't simply assume the old times were better. There are many stories of women who abandoned their children for adoption or who had their children taken from them due to neglect or alcoholism. There is an ambiguity in your claim because you are suggesting women now don't value their children. But the question is whether they ever valued them more than now.

As to food, I find that I am one of the best cooks I know and I also work full time and am single. There was a time when it was great when men could come home to a hot dinner and there still is. However there is an argument to say that people are also lazy about their cooking habits. Do people really work so hard now, both men and women, that they have no time to prepare a meal? Also, I know a few 'traditional' families where the home cooking was not all that exciting either. The point I want to make is that you hold your opinions so passionately that it leaves very little room for such variations.

Flirtation at work which you mention is another interesting area. I happen to be working at the moment in a workplace where there are about 10 men and 2 women. Both these women flirt with the men chronically even though one is married. I think they like the attention. Its mostly fairly harmless to the point of being boring. Yes, there is temptation in that respect and yes it can play havoc with family stability. But at the same time you are virtually raising the possibility of returning to a segregation between men and women. I prefer men and women to work together and deal with the issues that arise. It can be disruptive. But why is it that jealousy and insecurity should limit all our social arrangements. For the men at work the presence of women adds an extra magic to the job.

The main issue is whether we want to be guided by rigid rules created for us on sexual interaction or whether we confront the possibility of greater interaction and deal with the disruptive side effects. My main effort in my response is to allow a few questions and options to enter into consideration. The points you make are valid to a large extent. However they are not the totality of the picture. Also, you seem to have had some personally unpleasant experiences with a husband that makes you see marriage with work as inappropriate. These days not everyone thinks they can afford not working or they simply don't want to anymore.

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