This is an archive page for March 2001.
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From: Phlooteach@aol.com Subject: It still happens Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 I agree that patriarchy as it WAS is well and gone. However, some things die hard and for whatever reason, there are still some horrible insensitive men who not only cling to a sexist perspective, they try to teach it to their children. I teach flute to young adolescent girls in a VERY affluent suburb. I teach the daughters of dual income profressionals of the highest caliber-doctors and lawyers, etc. This group of middle school girls just got back from a band trip to California. They had a blast all in all and were describing the experience. Then, they told me about one of the chaperones on the bus. A grown male, whose son was on the trip. The girls were sitting in front of this man, who was sitting among the boys, and proceeded to talk as if in a locker room in the ice age. He made so many inappropriate and offensive remarks-the girls said they were only telling me the most gentle of these and that included the following: "I don't do German cars or ugly girls." This in front of girls whose bodies are developing. And in front of boys whose hormones are raging. He also said that he thought one of the girls on the trip "got around". The adolescent girls I spoke with said that she is a very pretty girl who is flirtatious, but not in any way a provocative dresser or what he implied. Even so, the remark was inappropriate. He talked to the kids very openly about how to do mushrooms (undoing years of DARE programs) and when one of the boys asked what is the most addictive drug he told them, and I quote "pussy". How sick is talk like this. I understand that men, especially young men, often revert to talk like this, usually amongst themselves in locker rooms. But, for a GROWN man to be talking like that in front of middle school boys. I was so offended by all of this, that I called the school and told them and said they need to debrief their chaperones better.
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As a parent and perhaps role model this male is teaching not only bad language and behaviour but possibly also an actual predatory attitude to
women in young men.
I think that men can at times treat women with too much respect and deference and that is partly the purpose of my site. However the aim should be to also strike a balance and to ultimately maintain decency between men and women.
I cannot deny that in my own language I resort to words like "pussy" occasionally. However words like this should only be used with a sense of
humour and not in the company of impressionable young males who may misunderstand the use of such words.
At times the relationship between men and women is a battlefield. This is
undeniable and probably will always remain relevant. But the main aim should
be to try to not create conflict where it is not warranted and to shoot higher rather than lower.
The "objectification" of women into "pussy" is a device for attempting to
make them less intimidating as humans and to imagine them in a context where
they are stripped of their identity in order to feel a greater sense of power. To relate such an attitude to young men is to draw them needlessly into a more adult world of sexual power relations and furthermore, clearly into a vulgar and conflictive area of sexual relations. By the overt demonstration of his attitude the chaperone has drawn the young women into his own sexual conflict.
I think your own actions in drawing the attention of others to his
inappropriate attitudes and language is the right thing.
After reading your page on the life of a feminised man, I have to agree with
most of what you have said. I myself, find all these stories and tv ads etc., to be sometimes hurtful, and am personally sick of all this crap media oriented make a buck type of Spice Girl s**t. Now don't get me wrong, on the other hand, I have fantasies about being dominated by a woman, well sexually at least, but I certainly in NO WAY think that men are insensitive pigs. If I was insensitive, would I feel like a prick everytime a female character manipulates/assaults a male character? I think not.
I do not agree with violence against women, and that goes the same vice versa.
And although I could have left school with more qualifications (I wanted to
be a rock star! Not a bloody lawyer!), does not mean that I am just another
stupid male.
I think you'll agree. Men have themselves to blame. I mean, I'm always being told that I should be in a relationship/married, with a job etc.
Pardon my french, but fuck that. I'd rather doll myself up and look in the
mirror while having a wank, if you know what I mean. But do I question all those who tell me what I should be doing? (men and women) No. I just stand there and take it. And when you do go and talk/ask a woman out on a date, she will either say 'No thanks, I've got a boyfriend', or 'What the fuck are you looking at?'
Which I cannot work out.
Women like to be admired, so when you admire them, they accuse you of being a perv, staring at them. Well I for one don't particularly want to be lonely, but the way my life's going, I think I'll be single for a LONG time yet.
As for your girlfriend telling you that you are insensitive, well tell her
to fuck off, or take the initiative, and leave yourself. Maybe I'm too touchy but if you make a comment to a woman, she will remember it for life and cast it up in your face when you least expect it. But a woman will make a deliberately cruel statement to her man and expect him to be 'a man' and take it. No way, jose'.
Well, I'm about done bitching, and I'd like to say it was a pleasure reading your page. PS, I'm not chauvinist, I'm just jealous.
Skip to next entry or continue with my reply.
In some respects I often see women as a disappointment, precisely for some
of the reasons you have listed. But it pays to remember that many of them
have the same disappointments in us...or the same intensity of disappointment.
I think that women in general, though not all, have a well developed sense
of criticism of men and make their disappointment and critique felt. On the
other hand I suspect men are more reluctant to do so. Maybe it is our
collective aura of emotional immaturity or of treating the "love object"
with a deliberate overwrought sensitivity. This reluctance to engage women
emotionally at the point of our expectations is a disadvantage for many men.
For this reason it is important to be a little more critical of women.
Obviously feminism is one of the obstacles that stands in the way of this
project. This ideology tries to always make women look good and virtuous.
Our culture does not only rely on this ideology to promote such a viewpoint.
There are other sentimental contributions. But feminism does exaggerate the
general idealising of women that occurs. This is one of the reasons why the web site not only criticises feminism, but also women. It is not aimed at putting females down. It is aimed at counterbalancing our mutual perceptions and ability to confront. The site attempts to show that men are capable of looking at women critically. Criticism is one of the things that women hate most of all, and yet which they also respect when done fairly and potently.
Having said all the above, your problems with engaging with women
successfully transcend these issues. This is in the nature of sexual
politics and personal pshychology. It is essential to correctly identify the
origin of misunderstanding between men and women and to judge each other
correctly and fairly. Ironically this war that occurs between men and women
is based on two groups of people who have an extraordinary symbiotic
attraction. Good luck.
How can you claim that our world is not patriarchal!! HIStory began when MEN wrote it. Since the Greeks HIStory has been dictated by men. Before the
Greeks society was matrilineal, and all of the information gained from
achealogical evidence dating back to 30,000 BCE is disregarded as
prehistory.
That was the only time society wasn't patriarchal and it's not even considered HIStory. Women may earn equal pay in some jobs, but not all. CEO's and other corporate officers' jobs are dominated by men, but not just men, WHITE MEN probably like yourself, so fuck off!!!!! Maybe you should learn a bit more about how fucked up society is so you can use your persuading talents to talk shit on capitalistic republicans.
Skip to next archive (February 2001) or continue with my reply.
That is not to say that the men did not have a bias in their perceptions.
This is inevitable. However we have to be wary of making judgments about the
implications of their studies. Unless you raise specific examples it is
difficult to move from here.
You raise a number of issues, all of which have been dealt with in my
history page. My opinion is that there is no conclusive evidence for a
specifically patriarchal history, when you define patriarchy as rule by and
for men. Rule was certainly by a select number of men and a lesser number of
women. But this is not rule by men as a whole, nor in their interest.
Do you think that a woman who has children and a job should choose one or
the other? Do you think that working and raising children is detrimental to
the child(ren) welfare and/or society in general? Basically I want your
opinion however short or long-winded about the topic. I personally would
also like to know how you view feminism.( is it good or bad?)
Skip to next archive (February 2001) or continue with my reply.
Firstly, in many western countries women who are single and have children
are pretty reasonably supported by the government. You can live ok and
support your children while not working in a job. However there are two main
disadvantages. Firstly, the standard of living for the mother is never
likely to get too high under this situation and secondly she might get bored
with this lifestyle.
The welfare provided by the government is usually just enough to get you by
and keep above water but it wont advance the situation of you or your
children. I think most single mothers struggle somewhat and would envy those
women who have a career or who have a second income. But there's nothing you
can do about that except get a man or get a job. Having a job can be
rewarding if it is not too boring and out of the way. This provides extra
income and gets a woman into new environments, meeting new people, and a
sense of satisfaction at being able to support herself. This can raise your
self esteem and lead to higher things.
If a job does not restrict your ability and interest in taking care of your
children then it cannot do any harm. Some jobs will take a woman away from
her children too much. If you have to work long hours and have a far
distance to travel to get home then you will see a lot less of your
children. You may have to leave them with strangers or with family.
I can't say from the little you have described what is the best decision. I
think the main thing to say is that there is no fixed rule on this issue.
Each woman has to make up her own mind based on her opportunities, her
concern for her own status, wealth and for the concern for her children.
There is no rule either way. There are possibilities that have to be weighed
up. Find out what type of work is available and what hours. It is not
necessary for a woman to be with her children all the time. However small
children probably need more supervision from an adult than older children.
As long as you maintain a strong interest in the upbringing and safety of
your children then your decisions are likely to be wiser and more balanced
than if you did not have this concern.
I know a few women who are in the situation of being either genuinely single
or partly single. Some have decided that it would be a nice lifestyle to not
work. They don't need to and they enjoy being unemployed, while also taking
care of their child. However, after a child is about 5 then it simply isn't
necessary for a woman to remain unemployed. There is after school care for
children and a part time job would allow these women to make do. I also now
a woman who does a lot of work but her children are teenagers and they know
how to take care of themselves. I think they are a little neglected but they
have turned out alright. Also, she earns enough money with her job to give
them a reasonable standard of living.
These examples just go to show that there is no fixed answer. Your situation
and aspirations dictate the decision that will be best for you and your
children for your situation.
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